Uncensored Money Season Three: Power, Control, Relationships and Money 

Melissa Browne: Ex-Accountant, Ex-Financial Advisor, Ex-Working Till I Drop, Now Serial Entrepreneur & Author, Financial Wellness Advocate, Living a Life by Design | 04/10/2022

Show Notes

In this episode, Mel and Lawsie discuss power imbalances that can exist inside relationships related to money, the unexpected ways they can arise and what you can do to educate and protect yourself.

If you know you need more help with your finances make sure you join the waitlist for the next round of the My Financial Adulting Plan. 

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Transcript

Mel: Today we're talking about power, control, relationships and money. So just, you know, a light topic for this week.

But that's because there's often a power imbalance when it comes to money and relationships. And that might be because one person earns more than the other. One person has a natural aptitude for money, and we might think it's okay to abdicate all responsibility to them. Or it might be a power imbalance that happens during the relationship because there are plans to take time out of the paid workforce to raise children. Or maybe it's a power imbalance because of a withdrawal or refusal to discuss money, or maybe the reverse; an item by item infantilisation of how you are behaving financially.

Part of the issue I see is because we are not talking enough about money, especially in our relationships, it may be that we think our experience is normal, when in fact it's anything but. That's why today I want to talk about power, control, relationships, and money.

And I wanna start by saying that normal is a cycle on a washing. There are so many ways to do money. That's not what we're trying to do here. I don't wanna suggest that there is 'the' way to do money. Instead, this is a conversation and for you as the listener to consider whether you have a power imbalance in your relationship with your partner about money or whether a friend or family member has that imbalance.

And to ask the question, what are you going to do about that? And what can you do about? Because it's a sensitive topic, I'm gonna have Lawsie ask questions so that we cover everything that we wanna cover, and no doubt she'll pipe in with some of her experiences with clients or suggestions, etc as well.

Lawsie: If I feel like it.

Mel: Fair, Lawsie fair. It's a big topic, but it's a really important one.

Lawsie: I actually think it is very important. And because we've seen, so I love your point that there's not one way to do it. Like even if we were to look at you and I, very, very different ways with our approaches to it and what we wanna do, and when we look at, you know, all the clients and stuff that we've worked with over the years as well. We've seen so many other ways, and some of them are brilliant and others we're raising our eyebrows going, Oh, not so sure about that. But again, that's coming from our position. You know, we're all gonna have our own lens, I guess, that we're looking at this through.
But let's get started. I know that you've mentioned some already, but what are some of the typical power imbalances that you've seen in a relationship?

Mel: So there are so many that I see. So it might be that one is earning more money than the other. So a power imbalance happens because one partner earns more. The expectation is that they should be able to make most of the financial decisions because they're bringing in most of the cash. And it might even be that the other partner is not really considered, their goals aren't considered, and their suggestions aren't considered because they're earning most of the money.

Or it might be that one partner has a financial background. So therefore they hold the power in that they have the knowledge and so they kind of ride rough shot over the other partner as a, you just don't need to worry your little head about that. Or if it's a woman to a guy, you know, I've got this, don't you even worry about it. I'll just do it and I'll let you know what you need to know anything or just sign here. You know, I've got this, I've got the knowledge. Just let's go for it. Or the power imbalance might happen during a relationship where the couple decides to have children and one decides to stop working.

So a power imbalance happens simply because of the fact that one person is no longer bringing in an income. And that's something that the couple has to navigate. It could be a mistake or misunderstanding. It can be deliberate deceit. And then there's that power imbalance that comes from that control and that coercive control around either this is how it's gonna be, I'm gonna dictate everything, and I'm gonna dictate your spending, and I'm gonna ekk out money to you so that you are infantilising and you're completely dependent on me.

Or it's a withdrawal where I am not able to have a conversation with money because you earn more than me. And so I refuse to engage financially with you because of how that makes me feel. And we might not think of that as a power imbalance, but it is cause the person that's refusing to engage is holding the power. So there's many, many different examples of power imbalance and that's just a few of them.

Lawsie: Yeah, absolutely. What are some examples that you've seen or that people have told you about? Have you got sort of more specific examples on that?

Mel: Oh my God, so many. This could be a whole session, but it is everything from ... so let's look at that last example so I can give you example upon example, upon example of women who outearn their partner, where their partner will not have a conversation with them about money. They will not have discussions about investing because they feel emasculated.

And because of that, either the woman is pressing pause financially. They're not asking for pay rises. They're sabotaging their business or feeling uncomfortable about its growth because they don't wanna make their partner feel worse. Or it's a really scary stat, but domestic violence in women, to women, when they surpass their husband, increases.

So women are more at risk of domestic violence once that goes up and that risk of domestic violence increases by 35%, whether it's physical or emotional when you go past that earning from for your partner. So that's one where I don't think people, and like my husband laughs when I tell him that, not laughs as in thinks that's funny, but he can't understand why a guy would think like that because for him he's like, oh, bring it on.

You know, I love, he's so supportive. But with us, it, there is still that I'm hyper-aware of it in wanting to make sure that as the person that has the financial knowledge and as the person that's earning more, I bring him into those discussions. And that he doesn't feel like he's just abdicating, cause I don't want that.

So I think sometimes if you are the one that has the perceived power, it's actually on you to make sure that you are drawing in the partner without it so that that power imbalance isn't there. But we also have seen. I mean, you would have it from the accounting firm as well. We've seen so many examples of power imbalances go badly. One of my examples is we had a couple that was in a relationship and they had a business together. He paid all the bills and was just to her, you know, I've got this, I've got this. And she worked out afterwards that he had a gambling problem and was putting the bills through the business bank account as the name of a bill, but really it was going to gambling.

And so when she was doing the books of the business, it looked like these things were for fuel or for different things were legit. And it was only when she thought, when she started to question it and we questioned the profitability of the business, she started to look at it more closely and realised that these bills actually weren't bills.

And he was ripping money out and gambling it, and she ended up losing the house and being left with very little because of his gambling addiction. And the fact that he was very much, and that's really difficult because it was secretive and for all intents and purposes it looked like it, but because he had the entire responsibility of paying the bills and she had no insight and oversight into it that he was able to then get away with it, if you like.

But there's also been lots of examples. I remember when I first started, I met a woman, her husband had set up a self-managed superfund for them and they'd rolled their super into it. And she had brought me in because that super fund had, not only no money, but the tax office was actually chasing her because the money had been used for things that it shouldn't have been used for.

And from memory, he'd just taken the money out and run away with it essentially, and he'd now taken off overseas. and she ended up having to be left holding the bag, as it were, and she ended up getting an inheritance from her father that passed away and was forced to put that into that self-managed super fund to replace that money because the tax office looked at her and went, well, you were a trustee. You should have had insight into what was happening. The fact that you didn't know actually is not okay. Yeah. So she, even though she trusted her husband and just was signing documents and believing that he was looking after their super fund, she didn't know that he'd ripped it and he essentially stole from her.

ut the tax office still said, well, you should have known and forced her to put some of that inheritance into that self-managed super fund, which at least it was going to her. And she's replacing that for herself. But...

Lawsie: Yeah, it was her portion. Not for both.

Mel: Not both of them, but still it's that choice and being forced to do something when you shouldn't have to.

And when I talked to, I put up a post about where I was interviewed for the AFR for this a couple of weeks ago and actually had someone that's been following me for a long time and has been part of the My Financial Adulting Plan contact me, and she worked for the tax office. And she worked in the space of self-managed super funds and business and what have you. She sent me an email afterwards just saying there are hundreds examples of she could give from husband's investing the SMSF money into the share market, thinking they can share trade. Even sometimes the husband's quitting their day job to do it.

And then both losing large chunks of money as a result. Or husbands leaving the marriage, taking all the super that was in the SMSF is more common than they realise. They'd see it as an opportunity to grab the cash and go, which is exactly what happened with our client. Husband’s using this super to prop up their failing small business that the wife doesn't know is struggling.

And it's just sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul, because the wife didn't have any insight into the books of the business. Or the husband passing away or using it to give money or small business examples that she gave that we've also seen where it was the wife just signs paperwork for not knowing it was for joint loans, or extending credit for businesses, and so much more.

I in my life have seen that with my parents as well. You know, my dad used to get my mum just to sign documents. And he would say to her, oh he was an accountant. I've got this, I've got this. You don't need to read it. She's very fortunate that it was for the purchase of properties, and it was adding to their wealth, but she would very easily have been scammed because he just put it under her nose, told her to sign it and not to question it, and I get that that's kind of how it was done then. But my concern is that because of that, too many women now are facing the repercussions of that, or we've seen that happen with our parents. And so we think that's normal.

Lawsie: It's normal, yeah.

Mel: So as a result, we are too trusting. We're not involved in the details, we lack the knowledge, or we are too busy with the family, so we just abdicate to partners. And even though even if we know or we suspect that there's a struggle or things in what involve, we kind of don't wanna know cause we are happy with the life or the lifestyle that we've had.

And I know I'm saying a lot about men doing this, but that's because in my experience, 95% of the time, that is how it is. And certainly this woman said that she can't give a single example where it was the reverse.

Lawsie: yeah. Which is interesting.

Mel: Which is really, and I'm not saying that that doesn't happen. I'm mean, Melissa Caddick. Hello.

Lawsie: Yeah, I was gonna say, there's obvious examples.

Mel: There are examples of women doing this, so absolutely they exist. So please do not hear us say that this never happens in the reverse.

But you know for this particular woman that said to me, said in 15 years in her SMSF space, not one case of a wife doing it to her husband, and plenty of cases of the reverse. So it's just that 'buyer beware' and, not just abdicating thinking, oh, it's okay because they've got it, because chances are they don't got it. And we really need to be smart about this.

Lawsie: And we see it as well. I think even with so many women that come through the My Financial Adulting Plan, we've got ones where they know obviously the marriage isn't going so well, and so the wives now are going, well, actually I need to upskill so I feel like I've actually got that level playing field. So when we do decide to separate and everything else, I'm not on the back foot because they realise that they have kind of just been doing exactly what he said in terms of hands-off. The husband at the time just look after all the finances while they were doing other things.

And they're like, Well, hang on. This is going to have long-term repercussions for me. So upskilling themselves to be in a better position, which I go - amazing. Like part of me is like such a shame you haven't done it sooner, but also well done to you for actually recognising that now and being proactive before it gets there because we absolutely see so many other women coming through that didn't do it beforehand. They've had that similar upbringing like you said, where it's just, oh, you get married, you have kids, and husband looks after the finances and that kind of story, and so they're thinking it's normal. Then suddenly the marriage falls apart and they're going, I now have nothing, and starting from ground zero and it's really confronting for them, like they're suddenly having to go, one, you're dealing with the emotional side of it, and then two, then having to start again and upskill themselves and stuff to be able to sort of try and catch up and look after their financial future.

Mel: And we probably the number one thing we hear from those women is, I wish I'd done something about it earlier, or I wished I'd been more involved. Because then they could have had more choice or they could have had more say. Or even when it all falls apart, they at least could have said, well, at least I knew.

Lawsie: I know you've sort of given a couple already, but are there any other unexpected power imbalances that you've seen that people might not be aware of?

Mel: I think the woman owning more than the man is the unexpected power imbalance, cause I think most people don't think that would be problematic. And certainly, you and my husbands are two examples of blokes that would go, go for your life. You know, how can I support you to do more and actually go out of their way to help us?

In our most recent launch, Adam came and cooked for us. Tone has done exactly the same as well. Like they don't just give lip service to supporting us, they put actions behind it. But I have seen so many examples of when a woman is earning more than a man, that withdrawal of, I, I can't talk about this. I won't engage, I can't talk about investing, I won't talk about goals.

And then that extra step to you being 35%, your risk of DV or emotional abuse goes up and emotional abuse goes up by 35%. And for me, that's that unexpected power imbalance. And that's where if you are listening with anything we are talking about, for me, what I wanted to do is for you to go, Huh? Instead of you thinking, huh, I just thought that was normal, to go this is not normal and it's not okay. And we're gonna talk about what you can do about it today. But it's not normal and it's, it's also that thing where if you're seeing that happening with a girlfriend and you're thinking, oh, I don't wanna get involved, I think we actually need to, because women over 55 are most at risk of homelessness. There is 450,000 women in their forties currently at risk of homelessness. This is not okay, and part of the reason it happens is cause we abdicate, we say nothing and there's power imbalances. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to talk about this today.

Lawsie: What are some red flags to look for, do you think, when it comes to power imbalances in a relationship?

Mel: There's so many. So if I was first dating a guy or a girl, uh, depending on my predilection, if they wouldn't have conversations with me about money, and I'm not saying first date, but if there's even, not even like if it was dismissed or if there's just I just won't engage with this, that would be a massive red flag. Or if they were dismissive with that or when you went to pay just were continually, ah, I got this babe. Don't you worry about it. That I would wanna have a conversation, cause that's lovely potentially for you to go, Oh my gosh, they're so, they're looking after me.

Lawsie: They're taking me out. Yeah.

Mel: But if you said, Oh no, I'd love, I wanna get this one. If they were dismissive of that or if they wouldn't allow that, that would be a red flag for me. And it's really sad that we have to look for this, but I think this is the world that we live in that we actually need to be aware of that.

If someone put a document under me and said under my nose and said, just sign this - absolute red flag. Because what you should be doing is whenever a document is put under your nose, you should be going, if it's a legal document, it would pay you to go and spend a couple hundred bucks and get a lawyer to just say, this is what that means for you. Or have your accountant ratify that, and if your partner suggests that, Oh, don't you trust me? Then for me it would be, yes, of course I trust you, but I wanna understand what this means for me and for us.

I wanna do my due diligence. And if they belittled you for that, then that would be a massive red flag. If my partner was wanting to make all the financial decisions and refusing to talk about money, that would be a red flag. Or telling you not to worry about the finances or every time you brought it up, just say you decided to stop working and you would say, oh, can we sit down and talk about honey? Oh no, you got enough on your plate. You just don't, you worry your little head about that. I've got that. That would be a red flag. And it's all these things where some of them might seem lovely, but actually they're not lovely. They're a power imbalance.

So it's figuring out, it's being aware of these red flags is not normal, and even your partner may not be doing this maliciously. I'm not suggesting that a power imbalance is a malicious thing and it's bringing it to their attention and saying, I really appreciate that you wanna care and provide for me, but it's, I want to be involved, so let me be involved. And it's, it's having the courage to talk back to that, to say, hey, cause partners in a well-established relationship should both have an understanding of what's coming in, where it's coming from, where it's going. And if you don't know that, then it's time for you to go and find that.

Lawsie: Absolutely. What do you think you can do to correct a power imbalance?

Mel: So one, it's being willing to have the conversation. As I just said, if your partner's doing it from a good place it's addressing that. It's saying, I understand why you are saying that, and I love that you are showing, you are trying to show, that you care for me by saying that you've got that, but actually I want to be involved.

And you don't realise it, but you're kind of creating this imbalance by you doing that. And I really want to remove that. So can I, let's have weekly dates to talk about it or monthly dates, and let's actually start doing on the same page. So one is to do it in a really gentle, loving way.

If your partner won't talk to you about it, maybe you'll start to talk about it curiously. So it might be starting with, Hey, I've heard about this thing about money stories. Is this something that we can talk about? You know, what was your money story that you received from your parents growing up? And then start to get on the same page from place of curiosity, not judgment. And if your partner won't even get on the same page with you with that for me, that's hugely problematic.

So your next step might also be from there that its counselling. You know, if your partner just refuses to engage, no matter how you try and address this, then being with a third party mediator so that you can find a language and a reason behind that, for me is critical.

And we've certainly acted as relationship counsellors as you and I before. So it's doing that, but it's finding ways for you to develop your own language for you to get back onto the same page. Shared goals can be a really beautiful one. If you as a couple can get together and figure out what you wanna do together, what you wanna achieve together, and then you are meeting regularly to see how that goes with that transparency around your financials, that is a really great way of both going in the same direction with the transparency and the, okay, we're excited about this. But if you needed a hand, if you both are a bit financially clueless or you both want to learn together or you won't want that shared language together, it's looking at something like my course, the My Financial Adulting Plan to bring you on to that same page cause we have both women who are thinking of stepping out of a marriage or have stepped out of a marriage, as well as couples who just wanna get on the same page. So you don't have to be out to get this right. Or on your way out.

Lawsie: Yeah, for sure. I think too, when you are that person, like if you are listening to this and thinking, oh, kind of like Mel and Lawsie, like I've either got a financial background or I'm the one that earns more and whatever. It's also about being proactive in dragging the person in, even if they're kicking and screaming to be involved in that conversation.

Like I know I certainly do that with Adam, where I'm like, yep, I know that you are happy to be all hands off but it's actually really important to me that you are aware of what's going on. That you know that there's no hidden account. And again, you and I manage finances very differently with our partners, but for us, I'm all around. Well, no, you, it's actually super important. You need to know, I'm not asking you to make the exact decisions on what we are going to invest in. But I wanna make sure that you are aware that this is what we are doing and this is why we are doing it. And we do that same thing that you're saying around wanting the goals. Cause as long as we're on the same page and that's perfect. I'm happy to do the stuff to help get us there. But we actually need to know what both wanting to achieve, so then we can make those decisions. And I know originally when I was first doing this with Adam, it was just like, Oh he's like, I just don't care.

Mel: Yes. Oh god, absolutely.

Lawsie: So don't care. And I've got no interest. And I'm like, I don't care if your eyes glaze over, like it's no different to you wanting to tell me what's going wrong with my car. I don't care. But you are gonna sit here and we are going through this, whether you like it or not.

And then I'll do exactly the same when you're telling me something about the car and I'm like, mm-hmm. I don't care. But sure, let's go through the motions it's gotta be obviously give and take. But yeah, I think it's just about, particularly if you recognise that you are the one that has that, perceived or actual or whatever, more power in that, yeah you do just drag them in. They do surrender eventually.

Mel: I love that. But also the reverse of that. If you are the person that's been abdicating, cause you don't care to just put yourself in the position where you're hearing it. So it's that kind of thing where it's that repetition means that you'll eventually you'll realise that, ah, wow, I think I get that now. You know, I'm sure Adam and Tone know more about finances than they care to admit because it's repetition

Lawsie: Yeah.

Mel: But also it's maybe choosing to upskill yourself as well. So if you are the person that doesn't have that, and you want to be dragged into those conversations, then maybe again it's looking at something like our course to give you that upskill so that when you're part of that conversations, you can go, great, I understand this.
And I can contribute because I've decided to upskill my financial literacy. Now I know more about cricket than I care to know. My husband loves cricket and occasionally I need to have conversations with him about things that interest him, so I know more about cricket than I care to.

Like I could hold a really intelligent conversation about cricket and make it seem like I care about cricket. I don't, but I can. I can seem like I do.

Lawsie: I'm not putting that on our agenda

Mel: No, never put on our agenda.

Lawsie: Thanks but no thanks

Mel: But you may never care about finances like your partner does because it's not your thing. But you wanna at least be able to understand it, talk about it, and understand most importantly, how it relates to you.

Because the fact of whether I know about cricket or not is not going to affect me and my long-term future. But if we don't get on the same page financially, that's gonna affect me.

Lawsie: Yeah. I think the other thing too, just while we're talking about that in terms of being educated about money, particularly if you've previously had no interest in is to think of relationships also just beyond with your partner. So for example, again, people will complete our course and then actually feel comfortable to go and meet with a financial advisor. Or feel more comfortable with their relationship that they have with their existing financial advisor cause they suddenly then go, I understand.

Again, there's not that imbalance where you're going to an advisor who's like, I know everything, and here's what you're doing. They certainly should be acting in your best interest. That's what you're paying them for, but just having that level of education just helps level out that playing field a little bit so you can feel like, yes, they are acting in your best interest, but also that you can understand also what they're saying.

You're not just going, Oh, cool, yeah, this person is acting in my best interest, sign away and off you go and invest and stuff. So I think yes, our chat today is obviously focused a lot on the relationship between two partners, you know, romantic partners, but also just extending that in terms of any time you're dealing with people with money, even if it's the mortgage broker or the bank or whatever else, like the more upskilled you are and the better level of understanding that you have around this also then just makes those relationships easier as well.

Mel: Yeah. Yeah. That's so, yeah. You're so smart.

Lawsie: Oh, occasionally. Lucky, you know, clearly with it today. So sometimes the result of a power imbalance is that you might realise that you're in a dangerous financial position, and that might even have legal implications. What do you reckon are your options? I throw it to you with, you

Mel: Yeah. What you don't wanna do is put your head in the sand and pretend it's not happening. Because if you've signed a document, and we just gave examples of SMSF or loans, it's not enough. It's not a legal argument to say that you didn't know. So you need to go and seek legal advice around, okay, what's the implications for me and what can I start to do to correct this?
So that's really important. You also might get your accountant involved to help unravel you from a financial situation. So you might have directorships that you're not aware of, and you might think, Oh, I'm a director. That means nothing. Actually you can be legally liable for some things that are really quite financially problematic.

Uh, so pulling you out of that and unravelling you from that is really, really important. If it's looking tricky and you're like, you know what? I think that there's deceit here, then your accountant might even put you or your lawyer might put you onto a forensic accountant so that you can start to dig in behind to say, right, well, what's actually going on?

Because I don't understand this and it seems hidden and it seems deceitful, so let's actually start to look at it. But at the very least, I'd want eyeballs on any loan statement I'd ever signed. I'd want eyeballs on all of my bank accounts and all of my loans. I'd wanna understand all of my assets so that I could then understand what Ground Zero looks like, and then go from there.

And if my partner wouldn't tell me, if my partner wouldn't tell me what those things are or where those things are, obviously that's a massive red flag and would make me, if there are joint accounts, it would make me wanna go to the bank and ask those questions. But if that made me suspect, okay, what's being hidden there? Then even if you wanted to stay with that partner, I would be having a conversation with a lawyer to say, this is what's going on. How do I find, how do I get insight here because this is not okay.

Lawsie: Yeah, very important. And have you got any other final thoughts on this?

Mel: For me, I think it goes back to that beginning that because we're not talking about money because we're not sharing it with our friends and what they're doing with money and their relationships, we don't understand what normal looks like. So we may be in a situation where we think it's normal or we think the actions of our partner are loving when actually they're actually unhelpful or at worse they're dangerous.

So it's figuring out, okay. I'm going to do something about this. I'm gonna recognise it. I'm gonna have the conversation with my partner, and then I'm gonna take action. But also it's starting to have those conversations with your friends and others as well, because this is not just something you want for you. This is something that you want to make sure that your friends are protected as well, your peers are protected as well, and have that ripple effect, of making sure that these power imbalances aren't something that are normalised.

And if you need help with this absolutely hit reply and we're happy to send you to play to people that we think are experts with this. Make sure you jump onto the wait list of the My Financial Adulting Plan, but definitely take steps.

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