Uncensored Money Season Five: Let's Talk About Money Stories with Mel and Lawsie
Melissa Browne: Ex-Accountant, Ex-Financial Advisor, Ex-Working Till I Drop, Now Serial Entrepreneur & Author, Financial Wellness Advocate, Living a Life by Design | 30/06/2024
Show Notes
It’s time to talk about money stories.
Finance is so personal, and the money stories that we grew up with or have learned thanks to our jobs, parents, education and more have huge effects on that.
In this episode of Uncensored Money, we’re talking about three different types of Money Stories that Mel and Lawsie have seen time after time through their careers as financial advisors. These money stories have big impact on the way we earn our money, treat it, and even advocate for ourselves.
Understanding our Money Stories is the first step to taking charge of our financial future.
Books and resources mentioned in this episode
If you're on insta, come play over at @MelBrowne.Money and make sure you’re signed up to Mel's Money Musings for more tips, tricks and ideas on how to best work with your money.
Finally, if you love this episode please make sure you subscribe and leave us a review.
Transcript
Mel: Hey everyone. I'm Mel Browne. I'm an ex-accountant and ex-financial advisor, so I have the theory, but I also have the life experience. I'm now financially independent in my own right after coming back from less than nothing in my early thirties. I want this podcast to be like a chat with your girlfriends about money. My aim is to help you discover why you're behaving the way you are with money, to suggest new ways you might behave that are a better fit for you, and to increase your financial literacy and financial confidence. I hope it inspires challenges, educates and empowers you with how you do money. So let's get into it. Welcome to Uncensored Money.
Mel: Today I wanna talk about money stories. I mean, let's be honest, before we start, I wanna talk about money stories. Lawsie, not so much <laugh>, but what we wanna talk about is money stories we've perhaps accepted as truths that we don't think to push back on.
Mel: And before I get into this, the reason I said Lawsie not so much is because finance is personal. You know, if you are a worker money type, if you are someone that's super pragmatic, you are going to hear me bang on about money stories and go, oh God, can't we just talk about share investing or debt or like just numbers, numbers, practical, just get into it, the practical stuff. But personally I believe that until we figure out who we are, we are going to get caught in the same sabotage loop. Or we are gonna find that we are stuck in a loop of just doing the same thing over again and not realize why we are behaving a particular way. And Lawsie to illustrate that, I will say that it was said to you and then also to me as many years ago, that perhaps you and I were stuck in a little loop of black and white thinking <laugh>.
Lawsie: I don't know why anyone would think that. <laugh>.
Mel: And that was really helpful to us because we know that now and we actually now will say to one another, alright, let's just do it. And we will then say all of the black and white thinking that we want to say that makes us feel so good,
Lawsie: <laugh> and productive
Mel: And productive. And then go, all right, we know that's not how the world works. Let's put it to one side and let's actually talk about it. So, because we know that it's been really helpful for us little worker bees, <laugh>, to actually go to the feelings level. This is why I think money stories in finance is also helpful. I wish I could show you the face Lawsie's pulling.
Lawsie: I would like to say to this though, in full defense, while I don't love this, I do appreciate the value of it. And I am very well aware that a lot of people that have gone through the My Financial Adulting Plan, love absolutely love this. And I look at them and go, well, I wish you'd have the same love for your spreadsheets, but they don't. So again, to echo your thing around finance, professional, fair, I can see the benefit of it for people as much as I go, oh, I know that it works. And it's just picking up all the different elements.
Mel: So fair. And maybe one day you'll love it as much as they'll love spreadsheets. Maybe there'll be a cross happens.
Lawsie: Oh, I think I might have retired by then,
Mel: <laugh>.
Lawsie: But we digress.
Mel: Exactly as you said. This is something we cover in week one of the My Financial Adulting Plan, as well as we do a whole bunch of other exercises that are all designed to help you understand who you are when it comes to money. And money stories is new for some people, but it's something I've been banging on for about a decade now. I think I was one of the very first to do so. So it's not something that's new to me. And I've collected thousands of money stories over that time. But it's the nurture side of money, if you will. Although, let's be honest, for many of us, our money stories aren't necessarily nurturing. And part of the reason I wanted to record this episode was because the Netflix series America's sweetheart is on at the moment, which is all about the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders.
Mel: Now I've gotta confess, I haven't watched this Lawsie’s giving me side eye over it, <laugh>. I haven't watched it. I'm gonna add in the preface yet. I was gonna say, 'cause I'm sure at some point I will get sucked into it. But the reason I wanna talk about this show is that NFL players can be paid millions of dollars a season. While a former Dallas Cowboys cheerleader who joined the squad in 2021 told the Huffington Post recently that she was paid $12.50 per hour for training and $400 per game day. Like that pay disparity is nuts. And according to her, she said it's, and this is a quote that it's kind of a running joke for the girls on the team, that the guys on the practice squad who don't even touch the fields half the time, get 80 grand more than the cheerleaders do a year.
Mel: And yet obviously the cheerleaders are at every single game dancing their asses off and every other appearance and their faces are used all over the place for advertising. Yet you don't even know who the guys on the practice team are. And a lot of people, and a lot of the fans will know who the cheerleaders are. And yet the pay disparity is nuts. Now management were asked to comment on that this week when people realized how little these cheerleaders were paid and yet how much they're loved and how people come. I mean, I watched a snippet of it, they're freaking talented. And people turn up to watch the cheerleaders like it's not like how little sneaky NRL games where I'm sure they're super talented, but this is like that whole nother level. So the management said that they're not paid a lot. They admitted that as, so she's the Jones, who's the daughter of the owner said on camera.
Mel: She said, but the facts are that they actually don't come here for the money. They come here for something that's actually bigger than that to them. There are not a lot of opportunity in the field of dance to get to perform at elite level. It's about being part of something bigger than themselves. And she added that women became a Dallas cowboy cheerleader, not for the money, but because of their passion and the sisterhood. And I just wanna call a resounding BS to that because couldn't you say the same thing about the NFL players, that they're there for passion, but they're getting freaking paid. I just read that and went, how in 2024 are we still saying that's okay because passion and sisterhood aren't going to pay their bills.Yet, this is not an isolated thing. This is something that I see so many women accept when it comes to their finances.
Mel: And that's what I wanna talk about today. What are you accepting because of that money story or that we've been taught to be grateful? And I wanna talk about the money story of the good girl tonight or today. We're obviously recording that at this of a nighttime tonight. And yes, I wanna acknowledge it for some industries there is pay disparity and that some industries aren't paid enough. But there are so many instances where we're accepting things as truth because of what we've been told we're worth what the job that we're doing is worth or the money stories we're carrying. And that's what I wanna unpack today. Just a small thing, Lawsie, just a little, just a small issue. And I can absolutely hear that. Bailey, your dog agrees with that and fair <laugh> because he knows that this is not acceptable. I wanna talk about three different types of money stories.
Mel: So the first one I wanna talk about is the money stories we pick up because we work in a particular industry, and this is something that I talk about particularly with people in the health industry and the wellness industry. For example, my husband's a physio. This is not something that is just women that are doing this. This is blokes as well. So my husband's a physio, I talk to him. So he has two master's degrees. He's over traveling with the Olympic team at the moment. He's worked with elite sport from cricket to netball to NRL to the canoe paddling team. At the moment. He's the physio that he sees less and less people now because he just doesn't wanna work as much. But he's the physio that other physios send their, we can't figure this out cases to, or he's also the physio where a physio might treat someone 12 times and he'll see them four times.
Mel: 'cause he's able to pinpoint like he's just an incredible diagnostician. And that's partly from, he's seen the worst of all of it. When you come with something unusual, he's like, oh yeah, yeah, I've seen a version of that and picked up everything from, in the last 12 months, everything from MS to cancer to strange little foibles that people had been 18 months seeing a physio and he's diagnosed them in a session. Yet every time I ask him, I say to him, you need to be putting your prices up. He goes, oh yeah, I can't really do that. That's not something that I can do. Because I think in the health industry there's something around, but I'm doing this as a service. I know I'm worth more. I mean, a hairdresser charges more than my husband for the time spent. I'm not devaluing hairdresser, I'm just saying with the education that he has the master's degree, he has what he does, and yet he has this money story around I can't charge appropriately for what I do.
Mel: And I've seen the same with the wellness industry. So Jackie, who's global meditation teacher, has talked to me about a pricing appropriately for meditation when people will say to her, but you should want to give that away for free. Like that's, and her having to wrestle with the how do you price that. I'm not suggesting that this is easy things to wrestle with. What I'm saying is it's being aware that we are holding these beliefs around what we are doing and the worthwhileness of what we're able to charge. And I'm not suggesting, for example, that my husband would charge 500 bucks consult, but it pains him to even put up his prices by $3. Like I have to fight him to put it up that it's asking the question from the industry that I'm in, what's the money story that I've picked up? What's the myth that I've picked up?
Mel: Maybe put it back to, well, what's the value that I'm providing? What's a different way of thinking about what I do? What do you think Lawsie?
Mel: I don't know about you, but sometimes I wish there was an easy way, a silver bullet, a magical unicorn, a fairy godmother ready to grant me three wishes. I mean, think of all the miracle diets, fitness fads, promising a six pack in six weeks, or finance bros promising riches by following this easy formula. Do you believe a word of it?Well, the part that longs for a quick fix might be taken in, but you are smarter than that. Personally, what I believe in is consistency, educating myself, finding an expert to help me, surrounding myself with a community who are going to motivate me to keep going and make me feel like I can do it because they're doing it too or are further down the road than I am. That's exactly what we've created inside the My Financial Adulting Plan. If you feel like you're on top of your finances, you have a plan for this year that you're super comfortable with and have everything you need to make that happen, then just ignore this ad. But for the rest of you, make sure you check out my life-changing 12 week course or for less than the price of a cup of coffee a day. Head to the show notes to join the wait list for the next round. Or you might be lucky enough to find that the doors are open and you can join now.
Lawsie: Yeah, I think it is that, and I think there's different stories with all different industries, and I'm gonna pull a couple of examples here. I'm not throwing anyone under the bus, I just wanna, but I think like common ones that you might hear will be that teachers are underpaid. Mm. And I think those of us that aren't teachers can sometimes look at that and go, oh, please, they work six hours a day and have 12 weeks annual leave and look at their salaries. Right? Please
Mel: Send all hate mail to Lauren at
Lawsie: <laugh>. I'm not saying I agree that I'm very well aware from my teacher contacts that they do a whole lot more than that. But that is a well pedaled story, right? And so every time teachers are asking for pay rises, that's sort of the thing that is sort of come out as that counterbalance. Yes. But where I think that's really interesting is if you are a teacher, you might be hearing that and think we are really underpaid. Mm-Hmm. And therefore that could actually influence your behavior. You might therefore take on the whole notion of, well, I am really lowly paid, that's why I can't get into the housing market. That's why I don't invest all of these things. Which may or may not be actually true. Like if you sat back and again objectively here, putting my hand up, but looked at it and went, well actually this is the dollars that are coming in and this is the things that I spend on.
Lawsie: And look, if I do these things, I can invest or I can do these things. But I think too often if you are in an industry like that, and that's the story that you're hearing, that you're underpaid, and, all those things, and you take that on as a home truth. Yeah. Then there's certain things. And I think you could hear that even if you looked at good old accountants, like people associate accountants with money and go, oh, accountants get paid a whole lot of money. And absolutely if you were the CFO of a billion dollar company, you were getting paid lots and have at it. 'cause as an ex-accountant, I don't want the stress <laugh> and be doing that to be earning the money that you're earning. But to that same point, I think then for accountants, there can be that pressor or that stress where they're like, oh, I deal with numbers all day and therefore I should be great at this. I should be investing, I should be. And if
Mel: I'm not, I'm gonna hide it. And maybe there's shame involved.
Lawsie: Yeah. I just think every industry's got these different stories or perceptions as to either how we see them if we're within that industry, or how we think others see them looking in at our industry and all of those things. So it's very much, I think to be aware of it is super important. But also to then my challenge would be to flip that and to bring it back to the practical and a good old spreadsheet. We know I love me a spreadsheet to actually bring back some control and some power. And yes, acknowledge those stories, but also challenge them as well.
Mel: I completely agree. And Lawsie, you and I can talk to every single of those industries where we know people. So we know a podiatrist that we worked with a number of years ago who was really reluctant to put up her prices. And we looked at her and went, you are charging the same as the people that work for you. And she was, no one would go to her employees. She was absolutely slammed and she was working stupid hours and they were kind of a bit more relaxed. So she put up her fees as the senior, like as the owner, left everyone's as they are. And the funny thing is, I remember her being sick about it, like it took a month probably to convince her to do it. And after she did it, people came to her and said, we can't believe you didn't do that sooner.
Mel: I think about 5% left her and went across to her employee. She thought loads more wood like she was stunned at the perception she had versus what other people saw. And I think maybe that's part of it is can you step into the shoes of the people you're serving and understand what it is they value? But also to your point, like we've heard also, we have so many stories of teachers that are buying houses, nurses that are buying houses, industries where you might go, they're not as well paid as others. You absolutely still can, but if you listen to the media, you'll believe that you only can if you've got the bank of mom or dad or someone to gift you a deposit. And I think what Lawsie and I really wanna say is it's about not taking on those money stories of, I love that you brought that up around I'm in this industry, I'm paid this, therefore I can't do that.
Mel: Well, yeah, you can. You might have to be a bit more creative, but you abso freaking can. I think the other money story that I really wanna talk to is your worth. And yes, this ties into industry, but I think this is a whole bigger conversation. I love the work of Brene Brown. I've talked about her work before. I think there's a lot around not enoughness when it comes to a money story and around what we are capable of. But I want to say, and Lawsie, I'm going to say a quote from a recent movie that I know you have not seen. Oh, but Gloria in the Barbie movie, <laugh>. Oh yeah, I have not seen <laugh>. You have to have money, but you can't ask for money because that's crass. And I think that line really defined a money story around the good girl.
Mel: And I think that that's one that I absolutely know. I'm the oldest child. I am a people pleaser. I'm less so now, but growing up, whether it was my parents, people at my church, teachers at my school was really important to me that people thought well, of me to smile, be polite, keep up the appearance that everything was okay. And I don't think that's unusual. I think a lot of women that partic were taught to be nice girls and depending on your birth order that can really be on steroids. I think the eldest particularly is really not just be a nice girl, but to be responsible. Certainly in my household, that was taken a step further and it was very much around, it was being the good girl, the smart girl. And if you didn't play that role, then there would be a withdrawal. So for me it was like that on crack.
Mel: The money story that I was received was actually, it was better in my household to be that good girl, but also to be a little wounded because my mom was a nurse and that's kind of how she showed affection. So when it came to my money, it was interesting when I looked back, I brought this story of, and I did it throughout my life as well, around just being a good girl, but having a little bit of brokenness as well. And almost that that's a good thing. It's almost like it's a badge of honor because that's how you are cared for. That's the only way I knew how to be. And for me, I see that and I see the media really pushing that message as well, really perpetuating that me. And what I see with that is the concern of that good girl message.
Mel: And even that word best off being a little bit fragile and a little bit broken rather than it being a strong woman. I really see that message impacted on a lot of women's finances. And my fear is that women are being encouraged, shamed, or groomed to behave in a way that has the potential at best to be financial minimizing and worse. To be financial devastating. Because if I wanna be the good girl in my relationship and maybe be a bit broken, I'm gonna abdicate financial responsibility. I'm gonna go, oh no, no, I can't do this. You take it. I'm not gonna raise my voice. I'm not gonna fight to have, but I think this is what we should do. It might be more of a Oh no, no, you do that. You've got it. So I think it's really important that we understand the money story that we are carrying and even go back and unpack some of the stories that we maybe picked up from our parents, from our birth order, from society at large. And that's just one. And maybe that's a little bit of an unusual one, but I think that good girl mantra and even that you don't wanna be too strong, you don't wanna emasculate your partner, all that sort of thing. I really see that as problematic on women's finances.
Lawsie: Yeah. Oh absolutely. I think a lot of us, that whole good girl, blah blah, like that mentality and how, yeah, then that flows through and I think like it carries through again, the practical, it flows through to so many other things. Like you're working for someone and if you've got these stories about what you're worth and what you should be paid, be it from industry, be it because you own your own business and you're out liaising with potential clients and things like that to get work and all of those things, if you don't believe or at least able to articulate externally what you think you are worth, then because of these money stories, then that's gonna have an impact on your finances as well. Like you're not gonna get the salary increases, you're not that you may otherwise be titled Yeah. You're not even gonna ask for it.
Lawsie: Or when it is on the table, you are not necessarily gonna be pushing as far as what you want or what you're worth. Same as if you're running your own business. Like it's so much of the pricing and everything involved in that is ties back to what you're worth, particularly if you're selling you as the service, as a consultant, as a whatever. And like I can remember even running with some girlfriends that were, one of them was setting up a business and she was going on, oh, this is what my rate is. And my instant reaction was, oh, that's way too low. Like you need to jack that up. But it was an interesting thing too 'cause I was like, as an accountant, I was like, yes, absolutely. Like you were worth so much more than that with what you're doing and the rate that you should be charging and everything.
Lawsie: But upon self-reflection, if it had been me in a business, there's no way I would've been charging. Yeah. What I was just like hand on heart. I was just like, no, you charge that. Like just wasn't even a shadow of a doubt when I was talking about that for someone else that I could see the worth and value in what they were doing. Yeah. They couldn't necessarily see it or were nervous to see and show it. Yeah. Yet if I, it was me, like there's a reason why I'm an employee and it's very happy space for me, but if it was me then having to be in the same thing I would've been doing that would've been, oh no. Like it absolutely would be tied to yeah, what you think you're worth and your confidence with that and all of those things. So I think all of the money stories around that can impact in so many different ways.
Mel: And I think it's realizing that we wanted to just to dig out one and really hold a light to it around that money story about the good girl and not being worth it or not enough. But I think to your point, what we wanna do when we've dug that out with all of these is we wanna rewrite it. But also I really like what you just said around maybe it's a case of faking it till you're making it and kind of putting it there and saying, well, if this was my friend going for a pay rise, what would I tell her to do? What might I tell her to say? What might I tell her that she's worth? And I think exactly as you just said, the answer would be very different if you then apply that same lens to yourself every time you go to do something for a while, whether it's a pay increase, asking for a salary, increase investing, et cetera. Maybe pretend like it's your bestie sitting next to you or someone you admire and say, right. What would they say? What would they do? What do I think would be appropriate for them and why can't I bring that back to me and maybe even bring a measure of it back to you with that whole fake it before <laugh>, you make it maybe for salary increases and investing and different things like that. We don't have a Sasha Fierce character, but we have like that heightened persona that's still ourselves, but just doesn't feel comfortable.
Lawsie: <laugh>. Yeah, we
Mel: Don't feel comfortable yet. I've got a friend who has a persona called contract Karen, and whenever she has to go into a meeting where she has to be a little bit fierce, she puts on contract Karen to go in and that's the persona she has. Maybe if we're doing these things, if the money story we are carrying, we are finding difficult to shrug off, maybe create your own persona and bring them in to that and have them be the one that takes the driver seat while you trying to decide what to do. Why not? I guess the the last one that I want to, the third one to look at is just mind new stories around wealth creation Lawsie, and I wanna start this with saying that this is one that I think is a common belief with the difference between men and women. So there's a US fidelity study where a thousand people were surveyed, 93% said they believe men were better investors than women. Yet a Warwick longitudinal business study, Warwick Business School found that both men and women outperform the index, but women outperform the men money stories around wealth creation. We are often on, 93% of us are carrying around untrue money stories around women's capability. Hmm.
Lawsie: Which is fascinating because again, it's like all of those things, if that's a belief that you've got in your head, like you said, you're more likely to abdicate financial responsibility or go, no investing's too hard, I can't do that. Or it's for the blokes or all of these things. Rather than owning the other part of that story and going, well, the facts say that women actually do outperform the men and therefore why not have a crack? Yeah. Again, I think it just comes around back to those having to be aware of what the stories are, things you are fed, things that like you absorb so much stuff subconsciously and passively. It's not that it's you're reading an article one day and they's all men are better investors. It's like, you may well have seen that line somewhere, but it's not something that's there. Like it's just stuff that you're absorbing and putting through your own filters and your own biases and stuff on to create these stories. For better or worse, some, if they're good stories, we wanna keep them, let's amplify those. But for ones that have got that potential to really have an impact on your finances and not in such a positive way, it's about challenging them and hey, start investing. It's a good thing.
Mel: Exactly. So I guess final thoughts, I think we've talked about a lot when it comes to like how can we do something we are passionate and still build wealth? Is that utopia, <laugh>? Can we feel good about ourselves and ask for what we're worth and build
Lawsie: Wealth? I mean there's a few questions in there. I would say I think it is possible to do something that you're passionate about and to still build wealth. Like I do believe that it's possible. I just don't think that everybody is able to, and I don't think it's something that's possible for everyone. So I think we've had, like I know you've spoken previously about the person who was actually quite passionate about investing in doing those things and ran a realistic, I'm probably butchering your story, but ran a really successful investing firm, but then took the profits of that across the hall to then use it for a social enterprise.
Mel: It used to be known as isis, which is terrible, or debt excels firm. Yeah.
Lawsie: And I'm like, that's amazing. She's doing more than a lot of us and it's because there's two different passions that I've got someone else that I work with and they operate on a very similar model where they are passionate about the business that they're doing and the good that it is doing out in the world, but ultimately that's still a very profitable business, very successful business that they are driving to get to a point to be able to sell it with the idea then that they will then continue and really amplify their not-for-profit work. Mm. So if they, you've got things like that, I think it's a great thing. But also we could say, my husband's passionate about bees, is that <laugh>?
Lawsie: He doesn't even make it like the bees make the honey and he harvests it. Is he gonna build wealth off that? No. Yeah. Like it's a hobby. So I think in line with that, I think for some things, yes, where the passion is right and where the right people are around you and being able to support you to do it. Mm-hmm. Then yes, you can do it. Or if you're super passionate, if you're an employee and you're super passionate about your job and you've got sort of these other avenues and absolutely you can be doing both. But I just think there's certain things that, like I said, bees or scrunchies or something like those things that you might be passionate about aren't necessarily gonna build wealth, but it's not to say that you still can't do them as well as be doing other activities that might bring in some more dollars that will ultimately build your wealth.
Mel: I would, yeah, I agree. And I think as well, it's about not acting and behaving in a way that feels forced. So I think for a lot of people we think like if I just talk about women, we might think, well, you know what, I have to be masculine in order to succeed or I have to be masculine in order to invest. I have to go through that hero's journey and have trials and blah, blah, blah. Whereas the truth is, it's actually for us figuring out what actually is gonna work for each of us individually. And as you said, for some of us, we can get the passion outside of our work. For some of us, we can get our passion from investing ethically so that we know that we are able to build wealth for ourselves and create so much good with how that money is being invested.
Mel: So that might be the thing, like our day job we might not be passionate about, but that we might be. I completely agree that it really is. I think you can have passion and your money story and build wealth and do all the thing, but I think someone saying to you that because you are passionate, therefore you shouldn't be paid appropriately. I just call such, yeah, BS to that. My challenge would be how could you be passionate and be paid appropriately and then invest? Like how can you create that utopia ? Ah, <laugh>, I feel like I'm stroking the white face. But what we do wanna do, I think is to just abandon the AFI hero's journey for our finances and kind of consider that hero's journey instead where we've rejected that money story that too many of us are carrying and that we are figuring out, well actually what is gonna work for us?
Mel: As we said, this is something that we look at at week one of the My Financial Adulting Plan. If it's something that you are like, you know what, I absolutely need help with that. We've been told by, I remember there was one accountant that did our program as Sydney accountant that she said the first two weeks, including the money story was worth as much as the whole program. Like if that's all we did, she got so much value out of it because this is the stuff that's transformational. Of course, we are also going to move on to the spreadsheet, et cetera in the program, not in the podcast, but if you are loving this concept one, go and start to do that work for yourselves. Go and start to unpack what this might mean for you. But then come and check out the My Financial Adulting plan. We are going to pre-sale so soon with incredible pre-sale bonuses, so make sure you head to the show notes and jump on the link and join us this July.
Mel: If you enjoyed this episode, we would love it if you subscribed and give us a review, then make sure you come and play with me on Insta. I'm at @melbrowne.money Remember there's an E on the end of Browne. I'm one of those fancy Browne's, and don't forget to check out the show notes for even more ways you can work with me to transform your finances.
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