Uncensored Money Season Three: Is your language or bias keeping you small?

Melissa Browne: Ex-Accountant, Ex-Financial Advisor, Ex-Working Till I Drop, Now Serial Entrepreneur & Author, Financial Wellness Advocate, Living a Life by Design | 06/04/2022

Show Notes

In this episode, Mel and Lawsie discuss the impact of language and bias on our finances and our lives.

They begin by discussing the response to a recent post on social media by Mel and how women judging other women is not only hurting our finances but potentially limiting what we think we’re capable of.

Mel also talks about the importance of self-awareness, that women are still being groomed to be ‘nice girls’ and why each of us need to question own biases and reactions and to understand what money stories we have.

During this episode, Mel mentions a calculator you can use to determine the cost of your career break on your superannuation and how to catch up on it: Super Cost and Catch Up Calculator.

Transcript

Mel: So this week, there is so much I wanna talk about, and I probably should just give a disclaimer that I'm supposed to be at Hobart at the Business Chicks conference at the moment. And I'm not, because of a whole lot of family, personal health reasons. So let's just say I'm not pleased.

Lawsie: You know, a little bit of FOMO

Mel: Yeah. So I'm trying really hard not to bring that energy into this chat. But today we are absolutely gonna talk money, but I wanna talk it through the guise of language.

And I wanna talk about it through the guise of biases and how those things are absofreakinglutely affecting our finance. And that's because Lawsie, there have been a few things that happened this week that I hadn't planned up. One of them was not going to Hobart, but we won't talk about that now.

I'll just get too sad and angry. But I wanna talk about what they were, the reasons behind them and why I believe that women judging women is keeping that glass ceiling firmly in place. And also limiting our businesses, limiting our finances and potentially what we think we are capable of. You ready for it?

Lawsie: I am holding on tight and slightly nervous, but let's go. Unleash the Melster.

Mel: Oh, well, we've talked in previous podcast episodes about 'just' and 'only'. When it comes to business, we've already had a chat around how using words like just' and 'only' when it comes to your business. So like it's 'just' a small business or it's 'just' a home-based business is designed to minimise it and keep it small.

And this week there was language used that was similar to that, but also where I just feel like it took it to the next level. And I have to say I was shocked, shocked, shocked. So I did a post on childcare versus paying super. And I did it specifically and strategically cause I wanted to shock people.

I wanted to wake people up to say, hey, the conversations that we are having about what percentage of 'her' wage should be paying for childcare isn't okay. And so I'm firmly in that it's all about choice camp. And I'm firmly in the, if you wanna stay home, I embrace that. I just want you to be aware that it's not just thinking it's a percentage of your wage. It's you are also forgoing the compounded effect of super and to make sure you're having a conversation with your partner about how you can catch that up.

So simple concept, I thought. So that was the original intent of the post and, oh my God. So some of the comments, so first let me say that many of the comments I have received have been positive and they're people saying, oh my gosh, thank you for highlighting this. I just simply never thought of it that way. The number of messages I've had from women saying they were going back to have conversations with their partners, or they're sharing it with their mother's groups, or they're in their twenties and they're going to have a conversation with their employer to start taking more out early, cause they know they want the choice of a career break.

So there have been positive conversations, however, there have also been some not so positive conversations. Yeah first of all, I didn't realise there was an acronym for stay at home mum. SHAM. I now know that, cause I remember the first time someone said it I'm like Sam. What is this?

Lawsie: You're hilarious. I'm usually well behind on acronyms. And even I knew that one, but anyway, we digressed

Mel: I did not know it, but I, there have, I was shocked with the vitriol that I received, first of all, from the number of people and it would be over a dozen message, DMs and comments that I had from where it simply said, do you have kids?

And first of all, I genuinely don't understand why that's relevant, but second of all, I think people need to understand there's child free and there's childless. I'm purposefully child-free, but if I was childless, so the fact that I can't have kids then stop prevents me from being part of a conversation that actually has nothing to do with child-rearing and everything to do with finance?

Like how hurtful and upsetting would that be with something that I would want, but the fact that I don't have chosen not to have children... I'm gonna swear. Why the fuck shouldn't that allow me to enter a conversation about finances for people that are going to have children when I'm simply highlighting here's a cost that maybe you haven't thought of?

And I was really shooketh with that question. I understand that it says more about the women that are asking the question than it is about me.

Lawsie: Yeah, of course.

Mel: And I get that there is so much judgment when it comes to women. There's judgment for women that are staying at home. There is judgment for women that have had one child. There's judgment for women that are going back to work. There's judgment for women that are part-time. There's judgment for women that have chosen not to have children. Like the commonality is judgment. And I think what we need to do is if you are lashing out, because of that judgment that you feel is aimed at you, my question for you is how is that affecting you financially?

How is that judgment keeping you small? And what bias are you holding that the first thing that you were doing is lashing out? And I mean, being asked if I had kids wasn't the only thing. I think my favourite comment was being told to stay in my lane. Which I didn't realise that again... I thought that I was talking about finances and the compounding effects of super. I didn't realise that because I haven't had children, I'm not allowed to jump into the lane of talking about finances and how they might affect you if you're choosing to have a career break. Mind you it's any career break, not just maternity leave.

Lawsie: Yeah.

Mel: But part of the reason I wanted to talk about that is do the blokes say this? Like are the blokes saying stay in your lane? Are the blokes judging? And I know that's because of the biases that the women will stay home, but I see this akin to using 'just' and 'only' to describe our businesses.

And I don't know if you are listening and you've been on the receiving end of a comment like this. Maybe it's something you've tried to discuss, or maybe you're a creative who's wanted to understand the numbers in business and you've been patronised and told not to worry your pretty little head, just stay in your lane love. Or you're a numbers person who's told you can't be creative. You know, just stay in your numbers lane. Just, yeah. You know, you just need to be concerned about that. Or a woman who's been told she should just stick to the household and he'll get the finances. I just wanna call bullshit on this whole, stay in your lane. You can't talk about this or you are an either or. You know, I'm child-free therefore, I can't talk about this. I'm a stay-at-home mum, therefore I'm not allowed to talk about this. I'm a home-based business, therefore I'm not allowed to talk about this. It's just destructive, not just financially, but for the ability to look beyond where we are now and actually decide I can be this and that.

Lawsie: Yeah. Huh. Feel better?

Mel: What do you think about this Lawsie? Have you been on the receiving end of this sort of stuff as well?

Lawsie: Little miss me who likes to stay well and truly out of the spotlight and things like that, strangely? No. Oh, that's not true. I think there still would've been there would've been comments in the past and it definitely comes back around that child thing. You know, assumptions because I'm also like you, I have chosen not to have children and those things. So there's definitely things that we would've had historically, but not to the same level that you had. And I found what I found really interesting with the comments and stuff that you were, and the DMs that you were receiving is it was all based on, but you don't have kids and so you can't talk about this. Whereas I believe the language that we used around it was a career break. And that doesn't matter. For some people, yes, they're gonna have a career break because they want to have time off to raise a family. But there's also, I wanna take 12 months and just travel, or I wanna go back to uni or I want to start a business. Like there's so many things and it was, you just didn't really receive comments on that, but I'm like this same principle is just anytime you're looking at stepping out of the workforce, reducing your hours to pursue anything, no matter what that is, all we were trying to do was highlight, be aware of the immediate effect on your super, but also the long term cost of that when you have that compounded up until when you retire and can access your super.

So I find it, yeah, really interesting that it was just the oh, staying at home with your kids is priceless. I have no doubt that it is, but it is just being aware that in doing that, there is this other side of it. And there's the positive comments that you receive. People haven't been thinking about it. And it is very much around they go, okay, cool. Yeah we won't have that coming in, but we can afford to live off his wage or whatever the case may be and not think about the super. So really interesting that on a positive light people were like, oh, and they could see how it applied to all types of career breaks, but then the ones that were argh and whatever, it was just from that child thing, which I don't understand that, and I mean, it just is an interesting observation that that's exactly how it played out.

Mel: I knew when we did that graph, that it would be controversial. I think that I was so interested though how quick we are to judge. And I think it's because we feel judged and my concern by people doing that and by comments, like stay in our lane. I absolutely know and when I gave those examples over creative being told, not to worry your pretty little head or the numbers person being told you're not creative. Or a woman told she should stick to the household and he's got the finances. There are so many places where we feel like we should stay in our lane and we don't have the right to comment or to be involved because that's just not us. Or where we feel judged because of our life choices.

And part of why I wanted to have this conversation today is to really be aware of bias and to be aware how that might be limiting you and stopping you from being open to conversations where for us, it was all about simply highlighting a cost, that an opportunity cost. Not to say that we want you not to stay at home. If you've listened to anything I've ever written, it's that I want you to have choice, and I want you to design the life you love. But it's always understanding what's the financial implications of that choice and how can I make sure that I'm not having to live in my car when I'm in my fifties and sixties, because we know the stats are women over 55 at most good risk of homelessness. There's 450,000 women in their 40s that are at risk of homelessness. And that one in two marriages end in divorce.

And I know quite a few of the comments were that I'm only interested in money. And the thing is when it comes to women, I am interested in transforming your finances, increasing your financial literacy.

And if you have a problem with that, then I would challenge you to say, well, what in your money story says that caring about money is bad? Because if you think that caring about money is bad, I really want you to unpack that because that's gonna prevent you from wanting to put your own financial oxygen mask on first and actually look after you.

So that later in life, you can also be there for kids and grandkids or whatever. Or maybe just yourself, selfishly.

But it is being aware of that bias. It is. I mean, I got it again when I posted my Budgets Without the BS. So someone said to me, I got told to stay in my lane again. They said, you need to stay in your lane and just talk about finances and not push your political agenda. I'm like, um, I'm just delivering my take on the budget.

And what I find funny is I don't reckon I voted for half of the elections for as long as I've been an adult, because I genuinely don't think that the candidates and the parties presented have been worth it. Like I've been so disillusioned, but in the last couple of years, I'm angry enough that I'm going to vote. Who I'm gonna vote for? I've got no freaking idea. I look at the alternatives and go, oh, you gotta be kidding me. I wish one of the Change 200 candidates, one of those extraordinary independent female candidates were in my election, but sadly, they're not. Tempted to move over to North Sydney so I can vote for Kylie Tink.

Lawsie: Just to do it.

Mel: Cause I think it's extraordinary what they're doing. But I don't have a political agenda. I'm just someone who's annoyed, that is scared for young people with the deficit that we have. That's looking at the government and their mishandling of childcare and aging and our climate change so much and going, what the hell?

And again, it's that 'stay in your lane'. Why are we telling women to be quiet? And I think probably that's where I have the biggest problem. And Lawsie, you'll know all about my history with being told to be quiet, but it's in the same way that Grace Tame was told just to stay in her lane and to be a good girl. I believe that we are groomed as women particularly to be good girls.

Lawsie: Definitely.

Mel: I believe that we are groomed to be nice. And you know, that sugar and spice and all things nice. And it's why we are easy to be preyed on. And certainly I'm putting my hand firmly up, with that experience in my life. But it's also why we as women need to stop allowing that and insisting on that for each other. We've gotta stop insisting that we be nice girls and act because that's not how we are going to be financial literate. That's not how we are gonna get things done and insisting that people stay in their lane and not judge, I think is part of that. It's part of that shhhh. Just be nice and play nicely and don't say anything controversial. Screw that.

Lawsie: Hmm, but I think it's also then people like yourself putting those things out there, but then instead of people trying to shut you down and keeping you in your lane, to have that different approach and go, okay. And that self-awareness, I guess, to go that's triggered something in me. My response is to go blah, and whatever they've been writing and all those things. But then to look beyond that and go, why am I feeling like that? And then to really challenge and broaden your thinking. And it might still be that they. nah she doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm still gonna do this..

Mel: A hundred percent,

Lawsie: But at least then you've challenged your own thought, your own biases, all of that stuff. And the lens of which you're looking at everything through life with, to go is that still actually the right stories and beliefs and everything else that I'm holding onto? Or do I actually need to challenge those and should I be changing or adapting what my views previously have been? And I think if we can actually have more constructive conversations around it, rather than no, the budget isn't finance. Don't talk about it and push your political view. Like we can actually then have much more robust conversations, which I think can then lead to more positive change. But just the way it's like, nope, you put something out there in someone tries to squish it down. It doesn't help anyone.

Mel: No.

Lawsie: And yeah, it makes it literally, as I'm sitting here scratching my head, it makes me scratch my head. Cause I just don't understand that. Like I'm all for being, I love being involved in those conversations where people will say something and I'm like, oh, I've not thought about that. And I'm someone that will, you know, I need to step back and then I'll think about it and I'll come to my own conclusions one way or another, but I don't have that.. I generally wouldn't have that just boom reaction, cause I'm really curious about understanding what other people's views are so I can work out what mine actually is on that particular thing going forward. So it's all.

Mel: So I guess the two things. So I guess the roundup of what we are trying to say is one, before you react to something to ask the question, what bias am I bringing to this?

Exactly as you said, Lawsie, what's been triggered in me that I wanna respond in that way? And particularly when it comes to money, what's underneath that? What emotion is there? What bias is there? What money story? What money message did I receive? Is it about being nice girls? Is it that money's good or evil?

Is it simply about being judged and striking out first? Is it that limiting belief around. 'just' or 'only', or the role of women in society or whatever it is. But to pick it out first and examine it before you become a keyboard warrior, but also before you dismiss things that could actually be really good for you.

You know, I thought I hated brussels sprouts for a long time. What I worked at is I just hated brussel sprouts being boiled the crap out of by my mother and served up as grey slop.

Lawsie: I just don't understand why you would.

Mel: I know. Whereas I actually love brussel sprouts now when they're cooked appropriately, and I think it's the same. You may not like the vegetables that we are serving up. So look at them and figure out why, and then figure out how could they be more palatable? Is it just the language that we're using? You might not like the form that the message is being delivered in, but actually the message is right for you potentially.

You just need to personally pack it up in a way that removes the judgment. Yeah, but to be aware that this is a whole-of-life thing. Yes. We were talking about the budget. Yes, we were talking about the compounding nature of super, but this is the language that we bring to business. This is the language we bring to all those other examples we've given today and to really be aware of that.

And if you're curious as to what the fuss was about, and you want my Budget Without the BS version, we'll put a link down into the show notes, cause I've dumped it all into Musings so you can read it. But the crib notes are that this is an election budget where the government is absolutely overspending to buy votes, but really short-sided spending.

So $420 one off boost to their low-income tax offset, a six month of having the petrol excise. And the third one is $250 to people that are receiving Centrelink benefits. It's a cash spend designed like distracting you with this; oh, here's a bright, shiny thing. And for you forgetting that, well, what are we doing about the budget deficit? What are we doing about climate change? What are we doing about childcare or aged care issues and so much more. And it's not just this Government. Before any election, one will be called in May. They can't help themselves.

There is an election spend that happens in that budget. The danger for this one is we already had such an enormous deficit thanks to two years worth of stimulus spending that future generations are gonna bear the brunt of, and we've just added to it. So if I was a young person, I'd be really pissed. So that is where I was coming from with that. The end. To be honest, I don't care who was in Government, I would have the same message.

Lawsie: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it is exactly what you said. You can tell the cycle and this is all about, let's just, you know, splash the cash in the hope that we get reelected in a few weeks time, because that's what people are gonna remember. But yes, there's a little bit more to it than just a few hundred dollars being thrown around

Mel: Just a tad. But what we want you to do is to make up your own mind, but to be aware of your bias. To be really aware of language, to be really aware of something particularly something financial has made you go argh, just to go, why is that?

What's the money story behind it, the money myth and the emotion, and then asking the question, is that serving me, or that was sabotaging me? Is that helping me or hindering me? And then if it's serving you, great go nuts. But if it's hindering you or sabotaging you, then question why that is and how can you rewrite that?

How can you change that message or story or bias so that you can actually move forward financially and still hear the messaging, remove the judgment and shame and vulnerability and what have you that's with it? This is why I've been talking about money stories and myths for over a decade, because I believe that just like all those women that responded in that way have missed out on understanding about the compounding nature of their super, because they went straight into judgment. There are so many women that are at risk of those stats that I talked about, because they're not willing to consider and not willing to entertain these ideas that we've talked about and really look after their future self.

But it's also being aware of that old adage that just because something has worked before doesn't mean it's gonna work in the future. And for a lot of this, that means tweaks and changes and starting to financially adult, and part of financial adulting I believe isn't just the setting up the bank accounts. Isn't just the learning about investing. It's actually understanding why am I behaving the way that I am with my finances and doing something about.

Mel: Told you, it was gonna be a different one Lawdog.

Lawsie: No, it's good. It's conversations that need to be had. And I think the good thing with all of this is yes, it's so applicable to our finances, but bigger picture, like you said, it's so applicable to life in general, and we need to be really conscious of our language and our own biases that we're bringing to conversations and the way we react to things. So we can make sure that we're having better conversations and just being better people. So, yeah.

Mel: Yeah. I have to confess, I was a little person this week with some of the comments but I did take photos of them and send them to you. And I only said the things to you that I would like to say

Lawsie: And for that, we award you the gold star.

Mel: Thank you. Well, we're all human, right? We all are triggered in our own way. And I really don't like that word triggered, so I'm gonna stop using that, but it is being aware exactly like you said, our finances don't exist in a silo. So we have unconscious biases. We have these stories and in our finances, an area that we are already avoiding, of course, we are gonna have some big ones.

So go start to challenge yourself, start to challenge your thinking, start to challenge those bias and really this week be aware of language, be aware of things you're responding to, but also be aware of your own language and get rid of words like 'just' and 'only'. Do not allow anyone to suggest that you need to stay in your own lane. And please do not suggest that of someone else.

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