Uncensored Money Season Eight: Daring To Be Wealthy

Melissa Browne: Ex-Accountant, Ex-Financial Advisor, Ex-Working Till I Drop, Now Serial Entrepreneur & Author, Financial Wellness Advocate, Living a Life by Design | 5/03/2026

Show Notes

What if the world of finance was never designed with women in mind?

In this special episode, Mel sits down with Lawsie to talk about her new book, Dare to Be Wealthy and the deeper truth behind why wealth still feels uncomfortable, taboo or “not for us” for so many women.

This isn’t just a conversation about investing, debt or super. It’s about the subtle messages women absorb over a lifetime that shape how we earn, spend, save and dream, often without even realising it.

Mel shares the personal experiences she’s never spoken about publicly before, why she believes women need a financial revolution, and the biggest myths keeping women from building real financial independence.

We also explore the things traditional finance books never talk about including hormones, ADHD, shame, reinvention, and why so many capable women still believe they’ve left it too late.

If you’ve ever felt behind, overwhelmed, or quietly unsure whether wealth is really “for you,” this episode is your reminder that it is.

And that it’s never too late to begin.

In This Episode, We Cover

• Why the word dare matters and why wealth can still feel rebellious (or shameful or icky) for women

• The hidden money messages women absorb growing up

• Why shame keeps so many women stuck in debt or inaction

• The biggest misconception about investing (and why it’s simpler than you think)

• How hormones, ADHD and life transitions affect financial decisions

• Why financial independence is about choice, not greed

• What Mel hopes women feel when they finish Dare to Be Wealthy

For more tips and resources, visit us at melissabrowne.com.au, on Facebook, Instagram or TikTok @MelBrowne.Money or send us an email at hello@melissabrowne.com.au.

Links mentioned in the episode are below

Dare to be Wealthy can be found at melissabrowne.com.au/books

Finally, if you love this episode please make sure you subscribe, share it with a friend and leave us a review.

Transcription

Mel:Today's episode is very different because I'm in the hot seat, which is Lawsie's dream scenario.

Lawsie: Well, of course, anything to put the pressure on you. But that's right, because today I get to ask you the questions. So this could go any which way. I appreciate you give me a list of questions because you know, all about the control. I cannot be trusted, but let's just say, we'll see where it ends up. go a little bit rogue. Yep. You're sweating now, hopefully. But we are talking about your new book, Dare to be Wealthy. Yes.

Mel: Fantastic. Excellent.

Lawsie: Dare. ⁓ look there it is in its beautiful pink cover glory. ⁓ As in apparently wanting wealth as a woman still requires bravery which honestly tells you everything that you need to know. So in today's episode we're unpacking why the one and only Mel:issa chose a title that feels slightly rebellious. ⁓ I know right? Whether we actually need a financial revolution. ⁓the subtle money messages that women absorb that quietly shape our behavior and why she decided to share the messy, uncomfortable, deeply personal parts of her own story instead of just sticking to ETFs and superannuation. And we're also going to go here into hormones, perimenopause, ADHD and money habits, debt shame, investing fear, all the things that finance books traditionally pretend don't exist.

Mel: Yeah.

Lawsie: And for anyone quietly thinking this sounds great, I've probably left it too late. Side note, go and listen to some of our other podcast episodes. ⁓ But we're talking about that too, because it's never too late. So this is not going to be your standard finance chat. It's going to be honest. It's human. ⁓ Occasionally uncomfortable. I'm not sure if that's for you or me, but all the listeners. And it might make you rethink what wealth actually means. So boss, welcome to my hot seat.

Lawsie:
Talking of feeling uncomfortable. So let's start light. How are you actually feeling having this beautiful hot pink with yellow accents book out in the world?

Mel: Great, I'm so happy to be here.
I'm relieved it's finally out there. Now I just want, I'm super impatient, surprise, surprise. So now I just want people to read it and let me know what they think. So, you know, yeah, pretty much. just, I just now want to know that it's made a difference. So I want people to buy it and I want to know, did it have the effect I was hoping? So that's, that's my next stage I've moved into from the launches.

Lawsie: What am I hot up a scorecard?

Mel: I'm no longer just relieved it's out there, I'm impatient to know, go get it, and then Tommy didn't make the impression I had hoped that it would. Yeah.

Lawsie: Yeah, is it making an impact? So let's start at the beginning. So the title, as we said, is Dare to be Wealthy. Hold it up again, that beautiful pink book, just so we cannot see it. So why dare? What was the reaction that you were hoping for? And do women really need to dare to be wealthy?

Mel: Yay! I'm gonna do this so many times. Yes, so if this was a book for blokes, it would just say, be wealthy. ⁓ But because it's a book for women, it's dare to be wealthy because I believe there is still an ick, there is still an uncomfortableness around that word. ⁓ So if I was to say, we have in the My Financial Adulting Plan, we have an exercise that says, ⁓ put down your wealth creation values. And it's the one exercise in the whole program that people have the most problems with. And every time I do a Q &A and I'm asked about it, I say, what if it said your money creation values? They went, yeah, yeah, that makes so much more sense. But it's not, think that it makes more sense. It's that they have a problem with the word wealth. Because wealth simply equals choice. But the problem is, and I'm sure we'll go to talk about today, that...

There are so many reasons why we feel uncomfortable and why we need to dare with that word. And so that's, but I, there's a reason that I called the conference Her Wealth Her Way. There's a reason why I call this Dare to Be Wealthy. I want us to start to become more comfortable with that word.

Lawsie: Yeah. I love the word wealth because it's a thing that I, for me personally, I don't attach it to money per se. It is absolutely something that I go, yeah, like you can have great wealth in terms of having good health. Like there's so many different aspects of it, but for so many people it's that still has that ick factor. So just embrace the word people. ⁓ You open the book by asking.

Mel: Yeah, absolutely. I should have just put that across the back.
Lawsie said, just embrace the word. mean, that's the book. yeah. Sure. Phew.

Lawsie: There go. ⁓ so we're wrapping this up now. Get you out of the hot seat. No, no, no,
no, no, no. I'm making you sweat my friend. ⁓ You open the book by asking what if the world of finance was created for women by women and calling for a financial revolution? Just, you know, small words. Do you really think that we need that and why?

Mel: Great. Yeah, and it's been really interesting. The book has been out in the world now for a few weeks. And I thought, you know, with the themes that were in the book, I'm like, surely that's going to be something that women are going, what the hell? And we're wanting to talk about. And yet still, I feel like there is a misunderstanding and a non-understanding around just how deeply that affects us as women, if anything, it's maybe even crankier than I was when I was writing it. I know because in my lifetime, women couldn't get a mortgage without a male cosigning. They couldn't get a credit card. So the world of money was created without us in the room. And I think it's really important for women to understand that because there are words that are used. For example, in the book I have a whole chapter on the gender financial language gap and why language matters. 67 % of the words used in the financial world are masculine in nature. And it's so, and I know we'll go on to talk about this, but there is a reason why we are behaving in a way that is not serving us and costing us financially as a result. But as a result of that as well, know, 93 % of both men and women believe that women are worse investors than bloke. So while multiple longitudinal studies prove the reverse is true. And I think it's actually the part of the reason is because men feel more comfortable in the world of money. They feel more comfortable with their language used. They feel more comfortable with talking about it. Whereas women don't.

And that alone, the fact that we feel excluded somehow, the fact that we feel like so much of it's complex and like an itchy jacket is just problematic from the get go. ⁓ So I don't want us to hustle more. I don't want us to work harder. I want us to understand that there is a different way of creating wealth, a softer, gentler way. And that is the financial revolution.

I'm calling for, not for us to fit in to the world that currently exists, but to reshape it as one that actually fits us.

Thank you.

Lawsie: Yeah.

So what are some of the subtle money messages that women absorb that they don't even realize is shaping their behavior?

Mel: So I think what I was just talking about with the, language and the gender financial language gap, because if you, I mean, let's take one really obvious example. And I've had another look today and there are still providers that are using this language, AMP. So if you are looking at your superannuation profile and the risk profiles that you could choose, and one said aggressive, even if you filled out the quiz that said that that's what you are, chances are if you're a woman you go, oh, that doesn't feel like me, I'm not aggressive. And actually that feels risky. Like I don't like the word aggressive. And some superfunds have moved to assertive, but even then, like I know so many women do not feel assertive and if anything, if they're assertive, they're called bossy. So that might not feel like them.

But the next one down after very aggressive or very assertive and assertive or aggressive is balanced. And if you look at that and go, you know what, that feels more like me. That feels right. Then according to Chen West, who are researchers, that's going to cost you about one and a half percent. And if we compound in returns and if we compound that of using average incomes over the life of someone that is ⁓ investing in super that could cost a woman more than $350,000. So not wage gaps, not career gaps, the cost of language used, which is why I call that the gender language gap. And there's so many other words that are used, ⁓ building a predatory bull to describe a market that's doing well. my God.

Like there's so many, so much language in analogies use 67 % as I said, are masculine. And you might think, well, this is a reach, but in a non-financial world, and I use this example in the book, when Coke wanted more men to buy their product Diet Coke, they tried different ways of advertising it and the blokes just wouldn't do it because they didn't want to walk around with a drink that said diet. I said, that's too feminine. We don't want that. We're we're blokes.

If we can't get them changed fast enough, being aware of the impact of those words on your decisions, I think is just so important. But even beyond that, so Starling Bank Group did research and they figured out that the financial media talks to men and women differently. And two thirds of the articles to women are that we just need to stop spending. 90 % of articles that we need to cut back, which is just wild to me.

We're already in the world of film looking at, I mean, let's think about how women are more likely to be portrayed, where spendthrifts that brunch and just kind of can't be financially reckless. So if we already believe that, is it any wonder then that that stat that I quoted earlier, that 93 % of men and women believe men are the better investors? Well, of course you would, because if this is what's constantly being portrayed, and if women feel uncomfortable in that world and with the language used, then is it any wonder that we are abdicating and the blokes are going, yeah, this is probably better if we don't give it to you. But also there's the heteronormative roles that we play. So if you're in a heterosexual relationship, they did research in 2024 in the UK, 13 % of blokes said they would be comfortable if their partner earned the same as them. 3 % said they would be comfortable if they out-earned them.

And if you think that's just boomers at up to 25 year olds, 75 % said they would prefer that their partner not earn the same or out earn. Like this is still coming through. And there's also, and so how we might behave as a result is we don't ask for the pay rise. We don't invest. don't try to be financially independent because we don't want our partner to feel uncomfortable. But more than financially uncomfortable is the stat that.

When a woman earns a dollar more than her male partner, her risk of DV goes up by 35%. Like these are the subtle money messages that are shaping our behaviour. And I want to call out these and I call out so many more that are affecting us in the book. Because I want us to understand why we aren't daring to be wealthy. And sometimes it's because of the culture and the institutional that we are trying to live within. And what I'm hoping is it's

kind of like bringing them to sunlight. When we see them, we can't ignore them. And then we have to do something about them.

Lawsie: Yeah. Changing tunes onto you, let's really... But you share some very personal moments in the book. So for anyone that has read it, you'll know that Mel: goes deeper and more intimate than she ever has before. Why was it important not to gloss over that part of your story within the book?

Mel: Yeah, great. So I have hinted it or I've talked about probably about five or so years ago, I started talking about my decision, that emotional decision when I divorced my first husband, I call him that to keep tone on his toes, where I gave my entire divorce proceeds to charity and every cent in my business and personal bank account, which was that reaction to him saying I'd never make it on my own and how I built back from that. But how it made me feel shame and fear and all the things and how

As an accountant, I didn't have the skills to know about investing, etc. I had to learn that. So I've been talking about that for a while now, and I share more of that in the book. And when I've done work for Dress for Success and different ones, I have talked about other things that have happened to me in my past and how they've affected me. Like I am one of the one in four women in our country that has been assaulted. But when I was writing this book, it really made me aware that so much of what had happened to me had shaped my own behaviour. And when I came to write the chapter, The Pretty Fool, where really I talk about how I believe as women we have been groomed and silenced and shamed to behave a particular way and how the nice girl and the good girl doesn't service. It made me realise that I have felt silenced in my own life because of that same, that exact same thing. And whilst it might not have affected me financially, it definitely affects how I talk about it and how I show up about it. So it took me about nine months to write the first six chapters. And in the end, an editor just said to me, you can't edit an empty page, just put it on there and you can edit out. And if anything, I added more because for me, it was important that I use my story to highlight, well, this is how it showed up for me. Not in a way that's going to, I think it will shock some people, but not, I didn't want to do it in such a way that it didn't add something. I don't want to tell my story if it's not going to be meaningful. But I assume for anyone that has been through trauma, this is 0.03 % of my story.

I was very careful about what do I feel comfortable sharing. There's so much that has happened that I still don't feel comfortable sharing and that's okay. But it is for me, it is my rawest, most vulnerable book. There are stories in there that I had to actually go to friends and say, hey, I just want to share this with you because it's going to come out in my book and I want you to know ahead of time. And they were shocked by it. But ultimately,

It felt like it was saying more that I didn't share than if I did. And I really felt that some people can look at me and go, well, of course she has great finances. She's had it so easy. And yes, she made that one dumb decision. But I mean, look at us. She's probably a North Shore princess who just has had an easy life. I just can't say nothing has been further from the truth. Like I'm a Western suburbs bogan that grew up in inconsistent, sometimes violent household that had so many things happen to me before 14 that the person that is here today, I couldn't even maybe comprehend what was possible for her at that age. Like it just, for me, it was just about, let's just, you know, how do we get out of, like just how do we make it through? So telling those stories for me was really important. And I hope, my hope in telling them

was they helped people understand and see maybe instances of how that's happened and shown up for them that silencing and grooming in their own life. But also told some personal stories that are also quite light. So for example, I tell the story about how in the last few years, I've only decided that when I walk down the street and I see a group walking towards me not to move off the path and oftentimes they just expect you to.

It's not a rude thing. just take up space. And there's just an expectation that you'll move, stop and let them past. And how I won't now, I won't be like, there's that grooming of, no, no, I've got to be the nice person and just step aside. I make, I, I balls with them. They know that I'm there. They've seen me. And then I hold, step, I step to the side of the path, but I make them move.

And there has been a shoulder bump, there's been some uncomfortableness and I have to bite my tongue and not say sorry. But it's just acknowledging that I deserve to be on that path. So some of the stories are yes deep, some of them are light, but they are all told to highlight that we've been shaped to behave a particular way because of the stories we've received. And we all belong on that financial path to really question what has kept you from being on.

Lawsie: And when you were writing those stories, like I know you said it took you nine months to do the first six chapters where you were showing more of your stories. ⁓ know you said you're sort of like putting stuff in and then maybe taking things down and stuff. But what did you have any of those moments? You're like, should I really say this?

Mel: I am so freaking lonely still do. But I just, my question kept, that I kept asking is this, is this adding? Do I honestly believe this will help someone by telling this story? And that's why I said I added a couple more in. I also had that moment where I went, cause I, cause some of the stories are stories of my upbringing where I went, would someone be harmed reputationally from telling this? But I don't think they would cause one, it was a different time.

Lawsie: Ha!

Mel: But also, I don't want to feel silenced because of my experience because of that. ⁓ So, and I think there are a lot of people that are quiet because they're like, no, no, I don't want to cause waves. And for me, yeah, there are still moments where I'm like, wow, people know that. And again, that's okay because as long as it is potentially helped someone, as long as it's...

show light on something that I'm comfortable enough. Comfortable enough. I never like talking about myself. You can always see me scratching and playing with my shirt. It doesn't matter what it is, the good or whatever. I just don't feel comfortable talking about myself. I will talk about finance all day, investing debt, like let's do it. But ask me to talk about myself and I am deeply uncomfortable. So you can imagine how I feel with any of this out there. Thank you.

Lawsie: Yeah. Well, I will put you out of your misery. won't dive in to other personal things anymore. ⁓ So changing tact within the book, you do talk about something called the boon of success ⁓ and the only to find that moment that men don't necessarily experience. Can you share a bit more about what that is and how it affects women financially?

Mel: You're good friends.

Yeah, so when I was looking at what lens do I want to show that would most highlight this world that I want to talk to women about creating for their finances. And I thought about it in terms of the hero's journey versus the heroine's journey. And I'm guessing most people haven't heard of the heroine's journey, yet they're very clear on the hero's journey. Because the hero's journey is Joseph Campbell's model that is most ⁓ what we most see in TV books and movies, where it's the hero goes out on a quest, he fights issues and problems and slays and overcomes and then reaches the summit and it's celebrated in the end. Like that's it. It's beautiful, it's clear, it's done. Whereas the heroine's journey as suggested by Maureen Muleluck, which I talk about in the book, because I essentially call women to the heroine's journey from your finances is a messiest seekers journey. And you can be on that circular journey at any time. And it's everything from, yes, we do still sit out on our quest, but that might not be our first quest. And I know as women, there are many times that we are like, ⁓ okay, we're off again. But it's also battling with our masculine and feminine, it is reconciling with what and who we want but there is a point where it's called the messy middle and the boon of success and it is that moment on the heroine's journey where she sets out on this moment only to find and that only to find might be only to find that it's not what she expected or only to find that that's actually not what she wanted it's just memetic desire it's what she was taught to want or only to find that what she was spending on in the hustle and the grind actually isn't serving her. Or maybe it's only to find there was divorce or separations or illnesses or aging parents. So it's that only to find that I call the messy middle, that women will often find themselves, it could be their 30s, 40s, 50s, but it can derail women financially. But also I call out three boons of success in the book of that messy middle.

And I think that can be the most interesting, but it's the hardest when you're in it. But the three boons of success are enjoying today, the expensive tomorrow. It's the boon of having it all. And then the third boon of success, which my menopause is absolutely kicking in at the moment while I quickly think of them what the third one is and you know what's funny is it's the one that I hold which is why I'm like no no you can't have that the boon of it not being enough of it just not being enough and you almost like overspending and overcompensating and over hustling because either you're not at the ageing stage or you just don't feel like you're enough and these those three things never mind the messy middle and what else can happen can derail women financially. And I really wanted to highlight that sometimes being in that moment is actually the best thing for your finances because it's realizing, my gosh, I have been, you know, I meet a lot of women and I met a lot of women and I know you did as well, Lausie, when we were financial advisors that looked like they had the boon of success, that had the trappings, that had the house and the car and the bag and maybe the kids at private school.

And then behind it, it was held up by debt and stress and fear and just the weight of expectations and what they thought they should do and having to do everything perfectly. And the number of women that we worked with that were like, just, is this really what you want or what you think you want? And it's having the courage to look at that and go, you know, I think a question for the boon of success is what would you want if no one else was looking? Like what would that look like? And that's a hard question. Now that's a question that I don't think enough people are courageous enough to ask, because that question will make you blow up your life. But it also could make you maybe not blow up your life, but be courageous enough to start pulling at threads and going, okay.

Lawsie: Yeah.

Mel: If I genuinely believed to enjoy today, not expensive tomorrow, then I should just care. I should care about women, just not if the ones that look like me, not only the ones that look like me, which means that the majority of people that buy Sheen and Temu are 30 to 49, 35 to 49, not the youngins. So do I need to be honest about sustainability and modern slavery and how I'm contributing to that?

Like it's just being, it's just coming to that almost come to Jesus moment of the heroine's journey and going, you know what? I'm going to be brave enough to face that.

Lawsie: And then being intentional with the decisions and stuff off the back. Um, it is the very first finance book that talks about perimenopause and menopause and menstruation cycles, all the things. Um, why did you, we said we're going to be both uncomfortable. Why did you feel like you needed to talk about hormones in a book about money?

Mel: Yeah, exactly. love making you say menstruation. She's ignoring me. I'm really proud of this because I believe it's the only finance book that talks about this. So I do believe there are more to come, but it's why I say, Dare may not be the only finance book that you will read, but if you're a woman, it's the one you can't afford not to read. So perimenopause, if we just pulled that one out, the cost to Australian women is 17 billion dollars in lost earnings and super annually. Like this is outrageous.

If we are not talking about how to financially set yourself up to protect yourself and thrive during this stage, then I think we're doing women a disservice because it's costing us that much. And the stats are that one in seven women will drop part time or leave early because of perimenopausal symptoms. Yeah, leave work early. Thanks, Law-dog. Also businesses or what have you. And if you drop that work early, if you've

Lawsie: Leave work, yeah.

Mel: If you leave five years early, according to the Australian Super Association, it's going to cost you 60K in super alone, nevermind the compounding nature of that. Like we already face so many gaps. As far as I was concerned, that gap is another one that perimenopause gap is one we can't afford to have. So it was really important to me that we highlight the cost and then just as importantly that I put in some financial habits that you could put into place to protect yourself.

If we look at menstruation, I also wanted to talk about that because I was sold the lie that when you're going through your periods, you are crazy. Like I believed that. And I know that the week before my periods, yes, I could be a creature, but I also believe that due on my periods, I was still that creature. Yet the truth is that there, when I did my research, there's a phrase called to bleed on it which means that that's the best time to make decisions. And I think as women we're being just sold because this isn't a matriarchal system. So it's about reclaiming and understanding the different stages of our menstrual cycle. And whilst we might not be able to make all our best decisions during the time we're in our period, it's understanding that, what if I could make them when I am more easily where I can make them easier. You know, maybe it's just that I don't make them in that third week. It's working with our flow, not against it, pardon the pun. But it's something also that I'm, when I'm looking at our conference for her wealth away, I'm genuinely looking at, do I have a panel on hormones at the conference? Because I just think if we're going to talk to women about money, this has got to be part of the conversation. ⁓

We are talking about, I can't tell you the number of conversations I'm having about protein and heavy lifting and creatine and that's really important, but it's time to add the financial conversation into there as well.

Lawsie: Yeah. And similarly, ⁓ you know, you've got a section in the book that's ADHD and money habits ⁓ as well with sort of tips on what to look for and how to deal with money if you're neurodivergent. We've never really heard people talking about this before. So why did you decide to include this in the book as well?

Mel: Yeah, the same deal. So women are more and more likely to be diagnosed as ADHD or neurodivergent. So and what we know is from conversations we've had is that there's almost a decision that is made at that time as well as, well then I'm just not going to be good at money. I'm too impulsive. I'm going to derail my finances. And it's like this new narrative that starts off. Yeah. And I get it.

Lawsie: Most justification, yeah.

Mel: Like there is an impulsivity that happens if you are, let's just pick ADHD that we need to protect your finances from. And I suggest a whole bunch of things that you can do inside the book to do that. But also your ADHD, your ability to hyper-focus can be a superpower. So it's putting that to work for you. And again, I suggest habits inside the book and a money hit session ⁓ regularly can be a great one. And I explain what that is, but it's not just accepting that I have ADHD therefore I'm down at money in the same way that we're not going to accept that I am 50 therefore it's too late or I'm a woman therefore I'm worse at investing no no no ⁓ which is why I've included again that in the I have its chapter of the book

Lawsie: Yeah. And then to dive into our favourite, the practicals. I know we're like, into it. Debt. So it is one of the biggest sources of shame for women. How do you want women to think about debt differently once they've read your book?

Mel: Yeah, you love. We feel more comfortable now. I'll stop playing with my doll. So I know a lot of people have heard about good debt and bad debt. In Unfuck Your Finances, I first bring up this concept of four different types of debt. Really freaking awful debt, ⁓ awful debt, bad debt, and okay debt. Sorry, really freaking awful debt, bad debt, okay debt, and good debt, goodness gracious. ⁓ But in this book, I just really wanna lean into that more and explain that further. So I think people are starting to get that, but not really.

So I talk about it in terms of an analogy of really freaking awful data is like a bad day, like a bear trap. And I know that women that are in that, absolute bear trap feel shame, feel like I just can't get out of this no matter what I do. I'm stuck in this payday, all those simple high interest loans. And I use the analogy of the bear trap because most, you genuinely can't get yourself out of it. So financial counselors, that is what they exist for at zero interest loans, helping you unrel, like release that bear trap, you are potentially going to need to go and get help from that free service. And that's okay. It's actually expected because it's a bear trap. So it's helping to remove that shame and to re-program you to go, okay, excellent. That is why I feel like this.

But it's also reimagining bad debt, because I think a lot of people with some bad debt, they think it's quite OK. And I've repainted it as a quicksand where you're looking at it and it looks like a gorgeous beach and you cannot wait to go and lie on it or run on it and down to the water that's just past it. But what you don't see is it's actually quicksand and it's going to pull you under as soon as you step on it. And you are really going to struggle potentially to either get that out of that without strategies and help. And again, I call out some villains inside this and I'm a very smart girlie. So, you know, I've got a chapter called villains, ogens and dragons in here. And Afterpay is one of the biggest villains in this space where they now on their website proudly proclaim that they are 54 % overspend if you use it. Like 54 freaking percent.

But I also talk about credit cards and more and how that is also problematic. But again, if you have shame about that, if you like, I'm leaning on that to catch up, it's making you realize that, oh, well, marketers have made it look like a beach. No wonder I just have accepted it. But it's actually quicksand. So it's again, reframing for you, making you feel like you are not a bad person for using it. You're not an idiot. Marketers have sold you that it is a glorious beach and they just withheld from you that they know that it's quicksand, which I get really angry about. ⁓ And the final two are okay and good debt. So okay, I've reframed as a bridge because people feel really uncomfortable with okay debt. I just need to pay off my mortgage and have it be gone. I just need to pay off my student debt. Whereas if you looked across to North Sydney from the Sydney CBD, unless you're willing to build a boat, like you look at that harbour bridge and you don't think how amazing would it be if that wasn't there? No, you go, I know I need a bridge if I wanna get to the other side. And for most people, they're not gonna be able to study without needing student debt. They're not gonna be able to buy a house without needing a mortgage. So instead of looking at it as problematic, you're like, okay, that's simply a bridge that's going to get to where I wanna go. I wanna make that the strongest bridge that I can.

I want to make sure it's sturdy so that I can still invest and do other things. So I'm not going to overspend on Renaults or the dream house. I'm going to make it right. And then I'm just going to get comfortable walking over it. I'm not going to look at it going, how nice would it be if it's not there? I'm going to be right. This is a bridge. It's necessary. It's just simply helpful to get to me where I want to go. And okay, dead is the car or the bike or the thing that's going to get me across faster. Not everyone's going to feel comfortable. So good to thank you.

Lawsie: You're good dead.

Mel: Not everyone's going to feel comfortable in a Lamborghini. Some people are just going to want a bike. And that's OK. It's realising with your risk profile what actually makes the most sense.

Lawsie: And what about the other side of debt? if we're at investing, investing scares a lot of women, what's the biggest misconception that you want to bust there?

Mel: Good night. That it's complex and that you need to earn your way to wealth. So I have a chapter called The Awakening where I really want women to understand that you cannot earn your way to wealth and you don't need to hustle in order to work. You don't need to work harder. You don't need to trade off time with family and friends. There's this real misconception whenever I talk about investing, will almost always have a woman say, ⁓ yeah, but I want to enjoy today or but I don't want to get a second job or.

But my family are important to me. Like, I'm not saying they're not. I'm also saying that you want to potentially invest. inside there, I share how to find more cash outside of a second job so you can put it towards investing. But I also ⁓ share probably the controversial opinion that I believe most people shouldn't invest in individual shares. And in the book, I shared my preference for most people, which is one investment, one platform, small amount invested for the long term. And I talk about what that might look like and different examples and ETFs and more and really breaks that down. Because what I want women to understand is it is not as complex as you think. It can be simple. can automate it. You can decide this once and never look at it again if you want to and you don't have to work hard to contribute, you can find more cash. And we've got people in our community that are pet sitting and pet walking, doing that one thing, finding an extra 10 grand a year and investing or paying down debt. Like it's not complicated, it's just being aware. But it's also understanding that there is this misconception that you have to trade and have to know about shares. Whereas the research suggests as I said at the beginning that ⁓ women are the better investors. Multiple longitudinal studies show that. But also, last year University of Essex research showed that men are the more emotional investors because they trade more often. They're more likely to be persuaded or swayed by not even a financial story, just a bad news story that will affect their trading.

So if ever you were at a dinner party and you're saying, my gosh, I just read this book and it talked about how the world of finance was created by women and for women and investing could be as simple as one ETF, one platform invested regularly and a bloke goes, ⁓ yes, but you got to be training and doing this and blah, blah, blah. You just need to lean in and go, you just need to stop being so emotional. Then like dark, no sure, because he's going to spew a whole lot of.

Lawsie: Yeah.

Mel: But it's just understanding that there is and it's for everything that we talked about around how we are perceived, the language we're using, media, etc, that has all created this narrative that investing is complex, that the blokes are better at it where the reverse is true. It can be so simple.

And if someone's here thinking, but I'm a creative, I'm not good at money, or I'm not good at math, I'm not good at money. No, it is simply one decision. And if, and again, I talk about robo investing in different things in the book, you don't even need to choose an investment. There are products and platforms now where you can fill a quiz and just start investing. So it is easier than ever before.

Mel: It's about being educated to that approach. ⁓ And again, we take time for me to share what that is in the book.

Lawsie: And if there's someone that's listening to this and they're going, this all just sounds great, but I've left it too late. What would you say to them?

Mel: So I talk in the book about ageism and money and how there is this thing that we have accepted as women that we need to look a particular way and we need to make sure we always look younger than we are, that the blokes don't. My husband just has not received that. And I love that he hasn't because one, I love looking a particular way. Not today, I look like I'm in shambles.

But I like fashion, I like presenting myself well, but there is an expectation that you will look younger than you are if you were a woman. And I love that there's been a pushback to that. But it is interesting to see that creep financially. And I believe the reason why women think that is because one, they think they only have until they retire to invest.

Whereas the compounding effective investment goes well beyond retiring. And if you know how to find more cash, you can keep investing in your 60s, 70s, 80s beyond. But also it's understanding that only women feel this way. So I've talked to multiple male financial planners, had a conversation with Owen from Australian Investors podcast last year. I said, have you ever had a bloke say to you, I've left it too late? He goes, no.

Like he actually looked at me like I was an idiot and Owen's a very lovely guy. He doesn't look at people like that. He looked at me like, huh? I'm like, yeah, if I talk about investing in a 30 year timeframe, I will have guaranteed at least one, probably 10 DMs. I've left it too late, but what about me? But I'm in my 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. Like it's not just women in their 60s saying this. It's all across all of those ages.

And it's about realizing that, realizing that the twisted messages received as women around aging, we have somehow applied to our finances and we need just to let them go and choose to invest anyway. Absolutely, the older you are, the more important it is to start, but we don't need to panic start, we just need to start.

Lawsie: And how do you hope that women feel when they close the last page of the beautiful pink with the yellow accents books of Dare to Wealthy?

Mel: Well I hope they feel more hopeful. I hope they finish it going, my gosh, yes, like finally, I hope there is a feeling of that. But I also hope, and I'm someone that reads the last chapter of the book first. So I wrote the last chapter for anyone else that reads that way. And when I wrote the last chapter, I use the example of when I was in therapy.

And the therapist for quite a violent assault that happened to me as a teen. The therapist said to me, what do you hope to achieve? And I said, well, ideally I would like the equivalent, the therapist equivalent of bleach for my memories. I never want to know that this happened to me ever again. And she said, look, there's a chance we could do that. But a better approach that we might try first is to...actually give you a kit that means that you would be able to live well with that. And I couldn't comprehend that at the time. It just was like she was speaking Greek to me. And it took, it definitely took a while, but I now have a mental health kit that I can apply, which means that I can live well, not every day. I still absolutely have my bad days, but live well for most of my life.

And I meet too many women who I believe are asking for the equivalent for their finances. They're essentially saying, we just want you, like we just need your brain. Like I don't have a finance brain. I don't have an investing brain. I don't have a money brain. I just essentially want you to take your brain and give me a brain transplant. So I just know how to do this because it's like someone speaking Greek. It's just feels so complex and so fraught.

And by the end, want them to essentially feel like I felt after that therapy to go, huh, I didn't need that bleach. Huh, I don't need a brain swap. I just needed to understand the system wasn't created for someone that is like me. And it can be simple. It can be gentle. It can be messy. And that's okay. And I hope that they hope that they receive a lot of hope from that.

Yeah. Lord, thank you for asking me questions that made me squirm a little. No. But if you're listening and thinking I feel seen or I feel caught out or even I feel slightly uncomfortable, good. Because that's which good. ⁓ Now it's your turn. Because what I know is that's where change starts. And if there's one thing I hope you take away from this conversation, it's this.

Lawsie: Do you really mean that thank you? No. You're just projecting onto them now. I'm like, I've been uncomfortable, you can be uncomfortable.

Mel: Wealth isn't about greed, it's about choice. It's about having options. It's about not shrinking your life to fit someone else's comfort or someone else's worldview. And you do not need permission to want to be wealthy or to simply want to have choice. You don't need to wait until you're perfect or debt free or partnered up or earning more. You don't need to wait till you're ready. You just need to start. Because the truth is,

Well, wanting wealth as a woman isn't selfish. It's powerful. As Melinda French Gates said, when women hold wealth, families, communities, society, all benefits. And if this conversation resonated, grab a copy of Dare to Be Wealthy, share this episode with a friend or send it to the woman who keeps saying she's left it too late or she can't do money because she hasn't and neither have you. Thank you so much and I hope you enjoy Dare to Be Wealthy.

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